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Okay -- so I am buying Paul's 180g AGA with two center overflows. Each overflow has 3 one inch holes, they are positioned so they are about 8 inches from each end of the tank and there is about 3 feet between them.

I am planning on it being a peninsula in our living room. I am having second thoughts about the island overflows and have had some ideas. Would like people's opinions. The island overflows are cool in that it really does lend itself to the viewing from 3 sides. The downside is that your aquascaping is limited. Oh -- the bottom of the tank cannot be drilled as the glass is tempered.

So I thought about moving one of the overflows and adding it to the wall end so the two overflows would form a "tee" at the wall end of the tank. Then I would drill a hole in the side which is not tempered, use two elbows and have that as another overflow. The other option is to again, remove the overflow that would be on the room end of the tank, use two of the holes in the remaining overflow as drains, one as a return, and then use the three holes from the removed overflow as a return and two for a closed loop. Am I crazy? Should I just leave it be?

So my concern is -- if I do this will I get sludge forming on water at the room end of the tank as there will not be enough surface water moving with the overflow positioned 5 feet away?

Marc of Marco rocks did something like this but only kept one one inch drain which he says is a continuing problem for his tank as it is not enough flow.

Scott is really into building a rock wall with me around each overflow so they will be completely disguised ....

Really want some opinions!

I'd keep the overflows right where they are and build a couple rock bommies around them. Leave the rest as open sand bed. Sounds like a really cool project Sherri, cant wait to see the pics, and if you need any help with anything, plumbing, electrical just ask.

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(' )< David >( ')

"The world is headed for mutiny when all we want is unity" Scott Stapp, Creed

I am moving to leaving it as is -- but I do have a couple of questions. Why are there three holes drilled? 1 drain, 1 return and one ???

Also -- I don't want any pumps in the tank. How would you do a closed loop? Could I use the third hole somehow in each of the overflows?

There are three holes in each overflow? What are the size of the holes?

You could do an over the top CL system on the end which wont be open to the room to keep the plumbing concealed.

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(' )< David >( ')

"The world is headed for mutiny when all we want is unity" Scott Stapp, Creed

The holes are all 1 inch ... I think. Over the end and up through the 3rd hole maybe?

Still not quite sure on the overflows, but I took a look at Paul's tank in this thread.

just bought a 180...

I'm guessing that the three holes are all in the overflows. Looking at the top of the overflows there are two notches in each one on either end, these are for returns. So guessing that the holes are drilled in a line, I would say that the middle hole is probably larger than the two outside. There is most likely one hole in each overflow for the drain and two holes for returns.

Can you take a picture looking down the overflow?

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(' )< David >( ')

"The world is headed for mutiny when all we want is unity" Scott Stapp, Creed

I don't have the tank yet so cannot take a picture. I think all 3 holes are the same size and they are all in a line. At this point I am thinking I am going to leave the overflows where they are. That's decided. Jim made the point -- what happens if you remove the overflow, use the holes for a closed loop and one of the bulkheads starts leaking? You are emptying a 180g to fix. YIKES!

So the next puzzle is doing a closed loop and maybe using one of the holes in each overflow as the return for the closed loop. Having a pump on the wall end and either drilling a hole for the intake or going over the top on the wall end. But if I use one of the holes in each overflow for the closed loop returns, then I need to figure out how get some flow going. What would be cool is to disguise it in the rock and have it somehow spiral around the overflow -- like a flexible spray bar.... sounds like a maintenance nightmare though. Any ideas?

I would run the intake for the CL right over the top on the wall end. Use 1 hole in each overflow for CL return, and have more CL returns plumbed up over the top on the wall end. Then with the other two holes ( hopefully one is larger ) use the smaller hole for sump return and the larger one for overflow. Problem if the holes are the same and are only for a 1 inch bulkhead is overflow drain. A 1 inch overflow drain wont handle more than 600 GPH, but a 1 inch return from sump, because the pump will add some pressure can be more than 600GPH so unless you size the pump properly or control pump output in some manner you could overpower you're overflows. Anyway despite all that, 2 600GPH overflows isnt bad, its still 1200 GPH sump turnover which is more than 6x tank volume turnover per hour.

Hopefully that all makes sense for you.

__________________
(' )< David >( ')

"The world is headed for mutiny when all we want is unity" Scott Stapp, Creed

All the tank turnover stuff is something I haven't learned about quite yet. This will be plumbed to the basement. I have two genx pumps -- a 40 and 55. I think I need the 55 for the 180. I had planned on putting a valve on the return side of the pump to control the flow.

Another thought is to have the return pump go up through a manifold/spray bar system. Then I don't need a separate pump. Just not sure how to get the vacillating flow.

I am going back and forth on moving the overflow again. If I use at least two of the holes as drains and the manifold for return -- should I get enough turnover and flow? I could just cut the overflow down and use it for returns ....

Aren't there drilled holed below the overflows? Why would you want to move them?

Not having seen the bottom of the tank (which would really help), I'd suggest if there are 3 holes in each "overflow" that you use 2 of them in each for the overflow to your sump, and 1 each for return lines. This way it will be hard to overload the overflow with too much water, since you have twice the capacity for draining than filling. You can always place more returns over the "wall" edge if you want more tank turnover.

As far as flow "within" the tank, you have tons of options. If you like you can use something like the cheap Hydorflo rotating heads on some of your returns. Hydor Flo Rotating Powerhead Wavemaker for a little random direction. I have a few, and while they require about a monthly cleaning, they seem to work fairly well, and are cheap/easy to replace.

Or you could look into the oceansmotions stuff to cycle between the returns. The 4-way would be good, the squirt series is smaller but maybe what you are after, they also have various rotating powerheads.

But (personal opinion here only), rather than completely random chaotic flow, I'd suggest opting for more of a "gyre" type setup around your "islands". With less power/energy, you will build up a more continual laminar flow, and if desired you can create periodic cross-currents or reversals to add some randomness. (You can do all sorts of things with timers or moving heads).


And... more stuff for thought: If you are doing a peninsula, you might want to do something interesting at the "wall end" with a baffled section, to hide pumps etc and you can maybe incorporate a wave maker of some kind.

You have tons of options, so it's up to what you believe your tank should have for flow.

Been away! At this point I am thinking I leave the wall end overflow in place and use all three holes (which are all 1 inch according to Paul's for sale thread) as drains. Then, having moved the other overflow, use the three 1 inch holes as returns. I would actually split the returns between some sort of manifold and the bottom. I like Scott's suggestion about laminar flow with some cross currents.

If thats the route you are going to take then you could bring the returns up through the holes and run some plumbing under the sand bed and LR and have the return coming out through LR piles to disguie them.

__________________
(' )< David >( ')

"The world is headed for mutiny when all we want is unity" Scott Stapp, Creed

Yea -- that's what I was thinking. I will buy high quality bulkheads and go the added step of using silicon on them. Plus, Shawn and I are talking about how to design something so if they do leak, it will go to the basement instead of flooding the upstairs. I really do not want to keep the second overflow in place. I was thinking of splitting the return so half of it would go up through the three holes and then the other half would supply a manifold/spray bar set-up. Do you think that is too much? I think the pump can handle it okay and I am thinking I still may need to limit the return pump.

So with three 1 inch drains that would be a turnover of 1800 gph? Is that too much? What is the ideal tank turnover for a mixed reef? I will stay with SPS and LPS. The only sofites I will keep will be my gorgonian and pulsing xenia. I do want to add some tangs and am in the process of researching them. I do not want to add a lot of fish but I know there are a few I would like to get. I am a sucker for yellow tangs so I was thinking a couple of them and maybe a couple of another kind -- haven't quite decided. Would add all tangs at the same time. Still researching who can hang out with whom. I am also going to have a pretty deep sand bed -- 4 to 6 inches in spots so I can create a real nice environment for some blue spotted jawfish. Plus I have my rabbitfish, my ornery bangaii, my clown and my Sunburst Anthias. Might add a few more sunbursts too.

So planning, thinking, writing, blah, blah, blah!

No silicone on the bulkheads, it greases the seal and can cause it to squish out as its tightened. I've never had a dry installed bulkhead leak.

They make plastic pans for upstairs washing machines so if a leak occurs it goes to a plumbing drain. It would be pretty easy to make your own even with a Walmart plastic tote.

My CL manifold consists of a Sequence Dart pump ( 3600GPH ) and 4-3/4 inch outputs. So three 1 inch outputs should be plenty for something sized similarly. However you will need to throttle back the pump or divert floww so you dont overrun the drains.

1800GPH is the upper limit of the drains so you'll probably need to run it a bit slower especially since your limiting it to just one overflow tower. Sump turnover I've read in the "expert" forums should be close to 10x tank water volume so near 1800GPH would be perfect.

Try to stay away from 2 of any similar appearing Tang. Aggression tends to become an issue. You probably shouldnt add more than 2 Tangs to that size tank anyway.

I love my DSB's but found that I like the BB for my SPS. It allows me to have basically unlimited flow with no concern for sandstorms. Certainly you can go with a DSB in the display, just makesure to maintain the diversity of life in it properly so it doent go south on you.

__________________
(' )< David >( ')

"The world is headed for mutiny when all we want is unity" Scott Stapp, Creed

I was thinking that you would add the silicon after the bulkheads had been dry installed????

Yea -- some kind of plastic pan set up to a drain is the idea.

I do want to do the manifold idea ... I think so maybe one of the holes I would block so I could still do the manifold/spray bar.

There are some tangs, from what I have read that you can keep more than one of if you add them all at the same time. I was leaning towards yellow and hippo tangs as I have read that you can keep more than one of them. You seem to be going even more extreme that most normal tang police with only 2 in a 180 ... have you read something? There are certain types of tangs that need serious flow and room to be healthy but yellows and hippos are pretty traditional and easy to keep. I have had both in tanks that were too small! But they were healthy -- maybe not long term though. I would have lots of nori which seems to reduce aggression.

I am only going to keep the really easy SPS -- like the ones I have now. I have 10 different kinds now and doubt I would diversify much more. I would have them near the overflow. My current sandbed seems good and my tank is loaded with worms, brittle stars, etc. The pod population seems to have dropped since the addition of the anthias .... What does someone do to maintain the diveristy?

Adding silicone after they are installed wouldnt do much to prevent leaks. If the water has enough pressure behind it to force its way past the bulkhead gasket silicone really wouldnt hold up.

I alwars err on the side of caution when adding livestock, in terms of swimming room a 180 really is lacking when compared to the wild reef. I think by adding more than 2 you are asking for trouble down the road. When they are small they get along or atleast be able to keep away from each other, but as they grow they will need more space and will become more territorial. Have people done it, sure, did it result in long term success, probably not.

To maintain diversity in the sand bed you could do sand swaps with other fellow reefers just use some caution, some online vendors sell different sand bed recharge kits, or occasionally purchase new LR for the tank and swap some of the old out. Just make sure to cure it in a seperate QT and remove any baddies that might show up.

__________________
(' )< David >( ')

"The world is headed for mutiny when all we want is unity" Scott Stapp, Creed

Wow Sherri... Plans all sound good except the part about having plumbing right at the bottom of the display. That frightens me a bit. If not the bulkhead itself, but something down below comes apart or leaks, then your entire tank will drain to the lowest point it can. Which in this case will be the bottom of the display. Maybe I'm being overly nervous for no reason, but at least in an overflow, the water can usually only trop to the top of the overflow.

But Scott -- people put bulkheads in the bottom and the bottom quarter sides of their tanks all of the time for closed loops. How is this different? I understand the concern and I think it is valid but if it never worked then why do people do it with CL's all of the time? How is this different?

Like I said, maybe being overly nervous. I have a closed loop in my 30 (it was pre-drilled with 2 holes in the bottom 3rd... I'd not have drilled it that way), but I made sure that all pipes go up from there anyway. But still I see mine as a potential for a tank drain too, so thought if you could avoid it, all the better.

I think Scotts just being cautious for you. People do do it all time and usually without incident.

__________________
(' )< David >( ')

"The world is headed for mutiny when all we want is unity" Scott Stapp, Creed